Pray a Little Faster

[vovat]

As I mentioned on Twitter, I saw a "pray to end abortion" bumper sticker a few days ago. This came across as a bit absurd to me, considering that the reason many (or at least the most vocal) people who oppose abortion do so for religious reasons. So let's see:

1. God says abortion is wrong.
2. But it happens anyway, which must mean He doesn't have much interest in actually enforcing the rule.
3. So what we need to do is ask the same guy who says it's wrong but isn't doing anything about it to end it. That'll work right?

Really, that's kind of how I feel about prayer in general, especially in a religion with an all-powerful, all-knowing deity. If God knows everything you want and need, and everything you WILL want and need in the future, and can do anything about it He wants, what's the point in asking? Yet again, it seems to result in the idea of the Lonely, Insecure God. He CAN help you out, but won't unless you ask Him nicely, because He LIKES being asked. Which I suppose works on a purely logical level, but why would a perfect being need attention? Of course, that's all a personal issue, and I'm certainly not going to stop anyone from praying if they think it DOES make a difference. But can people stop saying they're going to pray for people they don't like (recent example: Carrie Prejean with Perez Hilton)? You can DO it if you want to, but to announce it just comes off as totally passive-aggressive.

Also, when are we going to have an end of people trying to restore mandatory prayers in public schools? Is separation of church and state THAT hard to understand? It's not just that not everyone wants to pray (which they don't), but that everyone who DOES should feel free to do so in their own way. You'll hear people claiming that they should use "non-denominational" prayers. Yeah, okay, if you come up with a prayer that works equally well for every branch of Christianity, not to mention Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and paganism (and that's not even counting the atheists), then maybe we'll talk. I think a lot of these people are ones who grew up when prayer still WAS mandatory in public schools, and they have the rather bizarre notion that things were so much better back then. Sometimes I think people who have such beliefs have blocked out their actual childhoods.

But anyway, prayer. What do you think about it?

Comments

[burningofroissy.livejournal.com]

This made me laugh:

1. God says abortion is wrong.
2. But it happens anyway, which must mean He doesn't have much interest in actually enforcing the rule.
3. So what we need to do is ask the same guy who says it's wrong but isn't doing anything about it to end it. That'll work right?

I ♥ you for that XD

I don't believe that there are any all-powerful all-knowing beings who will actually understand and respond to a prayer. I do think it can work, though, only not the way Christianity says it does. I think we have the potential to change, if not always the world around us, at least ourselves; and prayer is a way of focusing energy on making that change--kind of like magic. I personally believe [because I want to, and because I don't have any compelling evidence to the contrary] that there are beings who can help us to an extent, and I believe that we have spiritual energy we can focus and use. But a big dude up in the sky taking requests? Eh, no.

But bullshit like "pray to end abortion"? Fine, let 'em pray. If they're busy praying they're not bothering people [unless they're praying out loud in public while waving fetus signs at people]. Also, notice they're not praying to end unwanted pregnancy, just abortion. Sluts and whores should still be punished, and they shouldn't be able to weasel out of it by killing their blob of cells baby.

[vovat.livejournal.com]

Don't you know that the purpose of babies isn't to carry on the human race, but to punish girls for having sex?

I personally believe [because I want to, and because I don't have any compelling evidence to the contrary] that there are beings who can help us to an extent, and I believe that we have spiritual energy we can focus and use. But a big dude up in the sky taking requests? Eh, no.

Well, if you think there are magical beings who are powerful but NOT omniscient, then maybe they DO have to be alerted to when people are having problems.

[burningofroissy.livejournal.com]

Perhaps. I don't believe in omnipotence or omniscience. I believe in physics and mathematics. What Christianity asks people to believe in is a being who can violate the laws of physics, and I don't believe that's possible without destroying the universe.

Also, babies are a blessing from God! Except when they're a punishment.

[vovat.livejournal.com]

What Christianity asks people to believe in is a being who can violate the laws of physics, and I don't believe that's possible without destroying the universe.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it, too.

Babies are miracles! Miracles that are a significant part of how the natural world works! You'd think something that happens every day would eventually cease to be a miracle, wouldn't you?

[burningofroissy.livejournal.com]

You'd think so. (http://www.northernsun.com/n/s/6%20Billion%20Miracles%20Is%20Enough%20Bumper%20Sticker%20(5576).html)

[rockinlibrarian.livejournal.com]

Prayer as I see it is about state of mind. It's a kind of meditation (or is meditation a kind of prayer? That's very Zen and if you think about it long enough it will become a prayer and/or meditation in and of itself!), which, if you do it right, the same sort of benefits. But not just measurable medical benefits-- psychological and spiritual benefits. And I do believe that prayer Works, too, but only when done properly. Like people who pray for their favorite team to win= not doing it right. Prayer isn't about asking for things and expecting to get them, it's about opening yourself up to the answers and gaining the strength to deal with those answers. If there's something bothering you, you don't just say "Make this problem go away" and expect God to smite the problem immediately. You pray something like "This is something that is bothering me right now-- please help me," and you really put yourself into it (or take yourself out, depending how you define "yourself"), opening yourself up, trying to connect with God, so on... in a state of prayer, you then either find the answer for how to solve the problem, find a new way of looking at the problem to help you deal with it, or find the peace and strength to persevere through the problem. Sometimes things happen OUTSIDE your head that answer your prayer as well. Often prayers are answered in ways you don't expect but are exactly what you needed. I've had prayers answered in these ways....

As for praying for people, I believe in praying for your enemies-- it's an excellent way to make your peace with them inside yourself as well as helping to understand them. I don't believe in telling your enemies that you're praying for them, in that way, though-- it does sound just too smug and self-righteous. I think it's great to tell people who'd APPRECIATE it that you're praying for them (people who are going through a hard time or are sick or something), because then you're showing support-- you're using the revelation that you're praying for them to give them hope and strength. Whereas if you use it to indicate your disapproval, you're tearing the person down, instead, and that ain't your job.

And praying for big epic things, like to end abortion? I have prayed to end abortion. But my prayer was more like, "Help me find the words to convince people that abortion is wrong." Humans have free will after all, can't MAKE them do anything, and since abortion IS after all a CHOICE, the only way to stop it is to MAKE DIFFERENT CHOICES, and THAT requires changing minds, which means Speak Up-- don't JUST pray. Prayer gives you the courage or wisdom or strength-- whatever it is you need-- to Fight the Good Fight yourself. It doesn't do your work for you.

[suegypt.livejournal.com]

Prayer isn't about asking for things and expecting to get them, it's about opening yourself up to the answers and gaining the strength to deal with those answers.

Prayer gives you the courage or wisdom or strength-- whatever it is you need-- to Fight the Good Fight yourself. It doesn't do your work for you.

Nicely put. To me, also, prayer is a practice of trying to find the truth by going deep inside. It is not asking Daddy to give you a new car for your birthday. When I'm not making myself crazy trying to adhere to religious tenets, when I'm content with my lifelong natural relationship with God, I understand that prayer is my ongoing relationship with the world. God may be omniscient, i don't know. God may be all-powerful, i don't know. I simply think that God created me, gave me tools to live and grow in this world, and expects me to do the best I can.

Like my parents, God will not bail me out when I get into trouble, except in the sense that I may access solutions, often through prayer, or through asking help from other people. I think intercessory prayer CAN work, and I believe i've seen it happen. Although, I do struggle, when, say, a friend of mine, dying of cancer, has all kinds of people praying for her, and dies suffering anyway. This will always seem unfair, and only thinking about the way through my own suffering is of comfort in this.

What prayer is good for is not "holding your mouth right" in order to activate God's compassion, not proving your worth to qualify for some sort of pass out of trouble, but, as rockin' said, to access the part of me that is willing to be courageous and use whatever gifts i have to find and use what is needed to live my life and love people as they deserve.

[annamatic.livejournal.com]

ITA with this. ;)

[vovat.livejournal.com]

So prayer is more of an inward thing than an outward one, sort of like meditation or something?

[suegypt.livejournal.com]

When prayer is an outward thing, that's performance. When a priest performs a ritual for fellow worshippers, that is " an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace" that includes public prayers, praying out loud. Prayer, in the context of certain people who want public prayer forced on society, though, is all about appearing holy and belonging to the right group. {sigh}

But praying itself (and especially since i no longer go to church) is something I do almost instinctually, and it is all inward. It's like an athlete who talks to himself in order to focus on the task or steel himself for possible difficulty. Or to express gratitude or appreciation for the moment, past and/or present.

[arfies.livejournal.com]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

Actually, if you pray for someone who's sick, it's better NOT to tell them:


"In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said."

[rockinlibrarian.livejournal.com]

I can see that! I guess I'm usually more likely to say it when I see the person is already nervous and needs the encouragement. Of course then there are the people who say it all the time, so if you wanted to you could brush it off as Just Them, or if you wanted to you could see it encouragingly. But when it seems to come out of nowhere? I did have that happen to me once, over a personal, not medical, issue, and it did freak me out a bit.

[kevenn.livejournal.com]

I never refuse a blessing - but I don't think I should be required to pray for any either.

[ozma914.livejournal.com]

To me the greatest way to understand prayer is that scene in "Bruce Almighty", where Bruce just answers yes to every prayer -- and chaos results. As the old saying goes, God answers all prayers -- but sometimes the answer is no.

Anyway, the Bible actually says God is a jealous God ... to me that must mean He has human emotions, such as the desire to be loved, which really would explain a lot. I'm not a Bible apologist or literalist, so the only other thing I'll say is that I actually have had prayers answered -- directly, as in "Whoa! It works!" Others would call that coincidence, of course.

[vovat.livejournal.com]

As the old saying goes, God answers all prayers -- but sometimes the answer is no.

But does He? Obviously no deity worth his ambrosia would grant EVERY request made in the form of a prayer, but wouldn't it be more effective for Him to actually tell you WHY He's rejecting it, or at least note that He's doing so?

Anyway, the Bible actually says God is a jealous God ... to me that must mean He has human emotions, such as the desire to be loved, which really would explain a lot.

Well, I think the idea that God is a perfect being, while popular, doesn't really have that much basis in the Bible. The God of the Bible is generally portrayed as an emotional and sometimes (apparently) irrational entity.

[ozma914.livejournal.com]

Effective, yes. Biblical, no. The most effective thing would be for God to create people who instantly worship and love Him, no matter what -- but God said, "Nope -- what's the point of living if everything's preordained and you don't have freedom of choice?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

But here's a question that would be raised by Biblical scholars: Isn't God, by nature, perfect? Isn't that the whole point of there being a God? Apparently not; apparently God is a being who may or may not know the future, but who definitely loses His temper and, for whatever reason, lets bad stuff happen in this universe. This doesn't bother me: over the years I've made peace with the idea that I'm never going to have all the answers. However, it's a concept that cuts to the core of almost all major religions, and as a result organized religion just can't accept it.

[vovat.livejournal.com]

The most effective thing would be for God to create people who instantly worship and love Him, no matter what -- but God said, "Nope -- what's the point of living if everything's preordained and you don't have freedom of choice?"

But it's possible for people to have free will AND some more actual evidence of God's existence, isn't it?

I actually kind of prefer the idea of a god who has a personality. Granted, a lot of deities are jerks (including the God of the Bible, in some parts of the book), but they're also somewhat more identifiable, and presumably possible to reason with.

[ozma914.livejournal.com]

But it's possible for people to have free will AND some more actual evidence of God's existence, isn't it?

God -- and I'm guessing here, because what do I know? -- apparently wants us to have faith. I don't know why ... I guess I'm just supposed to take the faith thing on faith. ;-) I see evidence of God's existence every day, but someone else might call it coincidence, or nature, or bury it by railing against all the bad stuff humans do in God's name. It's very much all in how you look at it, and that's the path of insanity for people who think everything needs to be measured by the Scientific Method.

As for the Bible, I sometimes wonder if the New Testament isn't more the second draft of the Old Testament. That would certainly explain why we're told to disregard all the earlier established rules!

[vovat.livejournal.com]

I would have to think that a truly loving God would forgive people for not having faith, yet it often seems to be the people who think God is the very epitome of fairness and justice who think He's going to punish disbelievers by torturing them for all eternity. Hardly seems fair or just to me, but what do I know?

As for the Bible, I sometimes wonder if the New Testament isn't more the second draft of the Old Testament. That would certainly explain why we're told to disregard all the earlier established rules!

Well, that's sometimes true, and other times Jesus says he comes to fulfill the Old Testament, and not to supplant it at all. Personally, I have to say it bothers me when the sequel has so many contradictions with the original. {g}

[ozma914.livejournal.com]

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't judge God by the people who talk crazy in His name.

Jesus -- as I understand it, keeping in mind I'm not a scholar -- was speaking of some of the Old Testement prophecies, rather than whether we can east oysters or stone prostitutes. (I mean whether we can stone prostitutes, not whether we can east prostitutes made of stone. Ain't this language grand?) Jesus is pretty clear that the old rules were mostly thrown out of the window. What bothers me about the New Testiment is the way it sometimes contradicts *itself* -- I suspect the authors of some of the books were shilling for their own POV's, a sign of things to come as far as splits in the religion are concerned.

[vovat.livejournal.com]

But would a stone prostitute help me get my rocks off? :P

[ozma914.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely!

[poisonyoulove.livejournal.com]

I don't think praying does anything. Except maybe make people feel like they're helping.
But then, I'm an atheist and have no spiritual feelings whatsoever. I just don't get it, it seems illogical.

I never understood the "school prayer" thing . . . if it's so important to people that they start their day with a prayer, why can't they do it before leaving for school? Or get there early to have some time to themselves?

go into your closet to pray...

[suegypt.livejournal.com]

I've been religious, or at least faithful, most of my life, and I, too, never understood the forced prayer in schools. From a very young age, I understood prayer to be between a person and "God," and only uttered aloud in the context of a religious service. I can pray at any given moment, and someone looking at me wouldn't know. It happens all the time.

I think that when people say "let us pray in the schools," what they really want is for life to stop while everyone watches and listens to a dramatic invoking of the Lord's blessing on anything from the Friday night football game to the election of the dog catcher. These people think if they aren't seen and heard being holy, everyone won't understand how, um, holy they are...

Re: go into your closet to pray...

[vovat.livejournal.com]

I think that's pretty accurate. If prayer is supposed to be about a connection between the individual and God, how does simply reciting someone else's words express that connection?