We are all individuals!

[vovat]

I had a dream that I was attending a reunion of the Honors College. There actually was such a reunion before, but I didn't go. Anyway, in the dream, I ran into people I knew from college, and they were nice, but didn't want to talk to me very much. I kind of felt like I didn't really belong, except at the time when everyone started singing the Sesame Street theme for some reason. I think the whole thing was a reflection on my actual college years, and how I felt like I was generally liked, but still somewhat of an outcast.

This conveniently relates to a topic that I wanted to discuss, which is that of individualism and society, and how they relates to human belief systems. In the third part of the epilogue to The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Joseph Campbell writes that, "for the democratic ideal of the self-determining individual, the invention of the power-driven machine, and the development of the scientific method of research, have so transformed human life that the long-inherited, timeless universe of symbols has collapsed." rockinlibrarian has written recently about how modern society fears death, and no longer shows respect to the dead as many ancient cultures did. I think this might be related, in that someone who thinks of himself or herself more as part of a larger group than as an individual might not be as concerned with his or her own death, as long as the society as a whole survives. That kind of thought still exists, but perhaps it isn't as common in an era of individualism, because death is certainly the end of the individual person. People claim that you can live on through your works or your children, but that's not really living on in the purely technical sense, as you're not there to see it. Sure, it would be cool to be remembered for something I've done, but even if I were to create something immortal (which I don't think will happen, mind you), that wouldn't make ME immortal. And in a way, I kind of fear that the people who want to live on through their children are the ones who will try to force those kids to follow in their footsteps. Nobody really lives on through their children, because those children are their own individual people.

Some say that religion can remove fear of death, but it obviously doesn't always work, as very religious people tend to be just as afraid of dying as anyone else. I think part of that might be because, even if you believe in an afterlife, it's still not life. Whether you think you're going to Heaven, Hell, or anywhere in between, you're no longer going to be taking part in events in your day-to-day life on Earth, and such a change is scary even if you believe it'll be for the better. We're reluctant to give up what we have in life. I don't know. I don't think I'd want to live forever, but the idea that death can strike at any time is a frightening one. But then, I'm not sure I'd want to know when I'm going to die either, because then I'd just keep dreading it like I do other unwanted future events.

According to Campbell, the society of which we should now see ourselves as part isn't a tribal or national group, but the world as a whole. I consider that a goal to which we can all aspire, but I'm sure many people don't want to.

Comments

[suegypt.livejournal.com]

What interesting points. I've always intended to read Joseph Campbell. I like how you've cut to the chase about the individual and the fear of death, the concept of "immortality" for a person.

death is certainly the end of the individual person

I have to disagree with the certainty part; for me, the only thing certain about death is that it separates us from the living. Where we go and in what form, who can say with authority, if she is honest? Having seen both my parents die, and all my grandparents before them, I begin to see how, when my generation is gone, my grandparents will be forgotten. When my nephews' children all pass away, provided I get to meet any of them, all memory of me will vanish, unless I get busy and make an impressive work of some sort that will live on in people's imagination.

As for fear of death being tied religion, I think you're right that an awful lot of religious people are extremely dreadful of death, despite assuring themselves they're going to some sort of heaven. Again, it's the separation I believe we all fear, religious or not, as that is the only thing we are certain about with death. Separation may mean total isolation to some, a terrible sort of individualism. Solitary confinement is one of the more feared punishments, after all. So, I'm saying, in a manner of speaking, that death may be the beginning of a new sort of individuality.

Facing death can certainly remove nearly all fear of it. When you don't have children, you haven't made a worthy work of art, and your religion is gone (not necessarily your faith), you have to think beyond this life and wonder. I've sort of begun to think of the Afterlife as a big garage, where you are in charge of looking under your own hood and figuring out how to fix what might be wrong, or soup up what's there so that it can go faster or farther. When that's done (who knows how long it takes), you go on a new journey. I sort of see this as solitary, except when you need to consult with someone you used to know about your carburetor.

But then, who knows?

[loz]

According to Campbell, the society of which we should now see ourselves as part isn't a tribal or national group, but the world as a whole. I consider that a goal to which we can all aspire, but I'm sure many people don't want to.

That really doesn't apply where I live, where Anangu set themselves apart from everyone else with the language they use, and do so proudly. In some ways, I completely understand, because I think culture is important, but in others, it's so counter-productive.

[ozma914.livejournal.com]

I don't want to live on through my children or my work; I want to live on through not dying.

[vovat.livejournal.com]

Solitary confinement is one of the more feared punishments, after all.

I know everyone says this, but when it comes to being in jail, I think I might rather be alone than in the company of people who want to beat me up.

I have to say that I've never thought it all that likely that our personalities could outlive our physical brains, and without a personality, would a soul really be you? Not that I believe in souls either, but even people who do tend to claim that spirit and mind are two different things, yet they somehow think they'll retain consciousness after their bodies die.

[vovat.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think there's somewhat of a balancing act between retaining your own culture and heritage on the one hand, and becoming part of the world as a whole on the other.

[vovat.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible with the current level of technology. Unless you find your way to Oz, I guess.

getting to Oz

[ozma914.livejournal.com]

I'm working on it! Do you think Dorothy's still single, or is she dating Ojo by now? :-) (We'd make an awfully odd couple, though -- usually I date younger women.)

Re: getting to Oz

[vovat.livejournal.com]

I prefer to think that Dorothy still hasn't aged since moving to Oz, but who knows? Maybe almost a century at the age of eleven has become boring. In Laumer's books, she ends up marrying a guy named Zippiochoggolak, who had been the swift messenger who reported the Wicked Witch of the East's death. Maybe it would work out best if she were to date Ozma, though.

Solitary

[suegypt.livejournal.com]

I have also long believed I would be good at solitary. As i get older, though, the thought of not having human contact beyond what I can conjure in my mind seems awful. And, of course, the thought for me is that solitary is supposed to last a while, in order to break through that love of loneliness we (most of us) possess.

When you say "personalities" it almost seems to me you are talking about what others may assign as the soul. Since you say you don't believe you own one, I don't wonder that you see nothing beyond the death of the body (brain). And, of course, you could be right, in the end! The simple fact that I can't remember a time when i didn't think I possessed something that will transcend this world as ME (though I couldn't begin to say how) means the thought of Afterlife is in my DNA, or nearly.

I think it appeals to my sense of adventure to think there's something beyond this life; I'd like to think that I would gain some intelligence or sense of something going forward that I don't have here, as I sit typing. If I'm wrong, and there's nothing, I won't be disappointed, now will I?

Re: Solitary

[vovat.livejournal.com]

I have also long believed I would be good at solitary. As i get older, though, the thought of not having human contact beyond what I can conjure in my mind seems awful.

Yeah, I guess part of the fun in having time alone is that you know it's not going to last forever. Still, if my only human contact involved people who wanted to rape me in the shower, I'm not sure solitary would really be worse.

I think it appeals to my sense of adventure to think there's something beyond this life

Sounds like something Dumbledore would say. {g}

Re: Solitary

[suegypt.livejournal.com]

Aw, I said a Dumbledore!! (PS - is that bad?)

I think prison is not necessarily the rape-fest that is the popular portrayal, at least not for women. But, then again, that's another thing i don't know for sure! I guess I'm motivated to shudder at solitary mostly after hearing about the 2 guys in solitary for THIRTY-SIX YEARS!!

Re: Solitary

[vovat.livejournal.com]

Aw, I said a Dumbledore!! (PS - is that bad?)

Nah, he's a good guy. {g}

I think prison is not necessarily the rape-fest that is the popular portrayal, at least not for women.

The general impression given seems to be that women's prisons aren't as bad, but of course I really don't know.

Re: getting to Oz

[ozma914.livejournal.com]

Right, I was actually making a (rather poor) joke based on the fact that if I started dating Dorothy, I'd look like a man holding hands with a girl a quarter my age while actually dating a woman who's more than twice my age. I know which would bother people here, but would Ozites be more horrified that *she* was doing the cradle robbing? Or is dating outside your age perfectly normal in a place where no one can tell what your age is? Or does everyone who falls in love automatically advance their looks to a more adult level?

Or is she Ozma's kept woman in the palace, as so many fans believe? Poor me, arriving to find Dorothy not only still looks ten, but is in a long term relationship with the boss! :->

Re: getting to Oz

[vovat.livejournal.com]

I would imagine that physical age is more important than the actual number of years lived, but it still must be pretty weird if someone marries someone they knew when one of them was an adult and the other a kid. Gayelette apparently had no problem with that, though.

[rockinlibrarian.livejournal.com]

Actually, many perceptions of an Afterlife for the Good (Heaven to Nirvana and the rest) FOCUS on the Reunion aspect-- coming Home, becoming One with God/the Universe/the Force, being greeted by loved ones who have gone before, your soul rejoining The Great Soul. And it's not necessarily the immortality of your PERSONALITY so much as your BEING, so maybe the little quirks that are you DON'T carry on, but the Inner Being of your You-ness does. There's also the idea -- and here's more of the individual vs. group -- that the part of everyone that is Immortal is actually all part of One Divinity, so, like, we are actually at heart All One, but our human existence forces us apart, to live as separate pieces, and it's only by coming together again that we find Peace. What it is is a completely different world view from an Individualistic society, and that's why it's horrible for an individual to face death, but not horrible, just scary and unknown, for someone who truly believes they will be more Whole on the other side.

I think I babbled a bit here. I'm going to write about the Divine in Everyone in one of my future Myth Posts. ie I already wrote it, but whenever I feel like typing it.

[vovat.livejournal.com]

Actually, many perceptions of an Afterlife for the Good (Heaven to Nirvana and the rest) FOCUS on the Reunion aspect-- coming Home, becoming One with God/the Universe/the Force, being greeted by loved ones who have gone before, your soul rejoining The Great Soul.

Yeah, but wouldn't it also mean leaving everyone you know on Earth who's still alive, and no longer being able to do anything to affect the world? Even if it would be an improvement (and I do think that the more appealing views of the afterlife are the ones that associate it with enlightenment, rather than the ones in which people play the harp and sing hymns for all eternity), I can see that it would be a change people might be reluctant to make.

[suegypt.livejournal.com]

wouldn't it also mean leaving everyone you know on Earth who's still alive, and no longer being able to do anything to affect the world?

You would theoretically know the others would join you eventually. The troubles of the world wouldn't mean what they did on earth, which philosophers have speculated over the centuries means that you pass from a world of worry and strife about every little (and big) thing to a world where you deal with the truly important things (or not??). The relief of being beyond the worst of human nature and the physical body would, I think, be considered your reward, your heaven. You would only need to be open to it.

[vovat.livejournal.com]

But if the afterlife is eternal and life on Earth finite, then why are we here in the first place? Just as a cosmic pre-test?

Re: getting to Oz

[ozma914.livejournal.com]

The older you are, the less that kind of thing matters. After all, a three year difference is huge when you're 16, but nothing when you're 26.